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I am increasingly perplexed as to how a Left even exists.

@LaserHodl simple. The concepts aren't mutually exclusive. What gives you concern?

@jeremy how could Bitcoiners support the persecution of wealth holders and censorship?

@LaserHodl what makes you think those things are a necessary part of being 'left'?

@LaserHodl easily. First, what does it mean to be left vs right?

@jeremy you don’t prescribe to the general perception that the right is individual rights conservatives and the left is collectivist progressives?

@LaserHodl I know authoritarian right-wingers and anarchist left-wingers, so I wouldn't say that support for individual rights is essential to being on the right and I wouldn't say that being a collectivist is essential to being on the left.

@jeremy @LaserHodl the American right is broadly based on the original principles of the Constitution, including individual Liberty. The Left is generally hardcore socialism, massive government spending and censorship of free speech.

@BitcoinGent @LaserHodl seems like you are painting with a rather broad brush. Perhaps there is room for a more granular appreciation of individual motives :)

@jeremy @LaserHodl How would redistribution of wealth work in a bitcoin-based system?

@jeremy @LaserHodl Bitcoin is much less confiscatable and much more easily hidden than gold coins.

@Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl true, but government often doesn't have to come knocking at each door to collect taxes. The threat of liens is usually sufficient.

@jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl Bitcoin can also be plausibly deniable. Very different from the mob breaking into your home and seizing the gold stashed under your bed.

@fluxdev @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl and I assume that bed is in a house, no? Sitting on a discrete parcel of land, upon which property tax may be levied?

@jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl A land tax alone won't pay for lazy bastards to sit at home scratching their asses.

@fluxdev @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl of course it can. I contend you can have a progressive government with a strong social safety net funded on the principle of Georgism (worth a peek on Wikipedia if you aren't familiar, or read Progress and Poverty - excellent book).

@jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl

How about what I posted on twitter: Political thoughts:
- Left: YOU have to pay for what I think is fair
- Right: Every race pays their own shit, strong government protects us from Commies.
- Center: I don't have an opinion, as long as you vote for me.

Since 2009 there was a new political orientation:
- Up

'Right - left' are just distractions so voters have an enemy and don't look to close to what is happening in political circles 🤷‍♂️

@soulexporter @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl I generally agree that right-left is a distraction, but governments of all stripes collect tax and 'you' have to pay for what 'they' think is correct, so I think that solely attributing that to a left perspective is somewhat short-sighted.

@jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl

I agree on that, but that is why you should abstract from left and right, think out of the box.

Thinking anybody should be paid a fair wage is not 'left'.
Protecting your property is not 'right'.

The problem in both cases is when someone thinks they know better than the individual what would be best for them, or mankind in general.

f.e. I am all for supporting people who have a bad stretch, but that is helping them on their feet, not holding hands 4FR

@soulexporter @jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador protecting your property is not a right? I honestly can’t believe I’m reading this.

@LaserHodl @jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador

You are not reading it correctly 😂

Protecting property is not "a right wing opinion"

@soulexporter @jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador who is going to pay the higher explicit taxes in a hard-money world economy? Won’t the successful wealth generators simply move to save the maximum amount of wealth for their family and heirs?

@soulexporter @jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador won’t governments compete in terms of services provided, and wealth creators choose the most efficient ones?

Who will pay for the free stuff in the end?

@LaserHodl @soulexporter @Bitcoinlabrador governments will compete, but 'efficiency' is only one factor to consider in a market for where you live and raise a family. You might, for example, place a high value on civil infrastructure, rule of law, and access to a vibrant local economy. Just because the country next door has lower tax rates doesn't make it more desirable...

@LaserHodl @soulexporter @Bitcoinlabrador some will, some won't. There used to be a time when even hard-core right conservatives embraced recognized that investing in your society through taxes and programs actually benefits themselves and generally makes the world a better place. Seems quaint to say in this forum, but it is true nonetheless.

@jeremy @soulexporter @Bitcoinlabrador perhaps in societies with homogeneous culture, but good will evaporates with the Left’s constant march to flatten the value system.

How do you achieve what you want without force?

@LaserHodl @soulexporter @Bitcoinlabrador not sure how to parse your question, could you ask it in another way?

@jeremy @LaserHodl @soulexporter How do you achieve redistribution of wealth without the threat of men with guns

@Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl @soulexporter you don't. That's the way it has always worked, and will always work. We enforce the participation of society into the social contract as part of the social contract.

@Bitcoinlabrador @jeremy @LaserHodl @soulexporter Bitcoin’s Gini coefficient has been declining steadily. It used to be 1.0 when satoshi was the only miner. Now it’s way lower and without any resorting to violence. Wealth is redistributed through commerce.

@pox @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl @soulexporter this is also true, a deflationary currency will push the poverty rate toward zero.

@soulexporter @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl fair points, I agree for the most part. I would only suggest that there are limits to individual freedom in accordance with the rights of a counterparty, and that we should begin having a discussion about universal basic income.

@jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl

HA! NO! I don't agree

The only limits to individual freedom is the need to bare the consequences. You are free to punch someone in the face, but by doing so, you declare yourself to be accepting those as well, not only by the punched guy, when you bitchslap him 😜.

On UBI, that is a whole different discussion I had with a UBI proponent as well.

@soulexporter @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl well, I maintain that violence is something that should be regulated by the state. You assault someone, you go to prison. Let's table ubi for a while, plenty of time to discuss later.

@jeremy @Bitcoinlabrador @LaserHodl This is often not the case, depending on how everything is spun.

A lot of police are just normal folks doing a job in which they thought they could make a difference, and turned out very disillusioned by the way things are going.

@LaserHodl why not? You could even make a full on communist argument for Bitcoin: money by the people, for the people*. The fact that people with very different political views converge on a tool suggests it's a good tool.

* = this meme wouldn't work in China, because Renmibi (yuan) mean "the people's coin"

@LaserHodl I know there are several folks on the left who oppose Bitcoin for environmental reasons, but that's just because they haven't felt the brunt of financial censorship for a while (and somehow stopped caring about the porn and legal marijuana industry). But that's just a matter of time. Once they care, they'll learn that those environmental concerns can be mitigated, or may just be a necessary evil.

@LaserHodl
Left ideas just refuse to die and altcoin and token space allows some degree of freedom to implement anything.

@LaserHodl
you could just as well ask "why does a dollar left exist?"

one can be, say, left-anarchist and prefer bitcoin as money to that created by central banks because the decentralized, decoupled model is more in line with anarchist beliefs

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